I found this data in my studies today. .. I would like your input.
I am an Apostle of Joseph Smith. . . . all who reject my testimony will go to hell, so sure as there is one, no matter whether it be hot or cold . . . (Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 212).
. . . no man or woman in this dispensation will…
It’s actually gotten cartoonish how many LDS today brush off these kind of statements by saying either that they were mistranscribed or that it’s the mere opinion of the certain prophet or apostle. Or as the twit Edward -did anyone see the profanity laden answer this good LDS boy posted last night? How many times can he use the f-word in a sentence, lol – says taken out of context. Yeah, like you need a certificate from JS to get past the veil can somehow be understood differently if you quoted the whole 2-hour sermon.
Folks, the Journal of Discourses is for the most part composed of *general conference* speeches given by prophets, seers & revelators – in other words, the same as when GAs today speak at general conference. They were meant to be considered as scripture and doctrine and the modern LDS can try as hard as they want to run away from past doctrines but an ounce of research online makes their efforts a joke.
Evolution is something for you to study and decide for yourself. I have never been asked for my opinion on the matter in a bishops interview, it doesn’t effect your standing in the church. Science does change, that’s what makes it science. You collect evidence you draw conclusions you collect more evidence and sometimes you make adjustments. I did take a course on evolution in college. I’m fairly convinced but I don’t see what the reality of evolution has to do with my everyday life. I also personally feel that too many teachers try to teach it with preliminary bias by saying “you must believe this it’s science” or “this is only a scientific theory”. My 8th grade biology teacher’s only preference was ‘you need to learn this and then you can believe whatever you want’. One other thought on the subject, Evolution is often used as an atheist argument. People evolved or God created. I don’t agree with this and the logic here is to assume one is true and evaluate the validity of the other. Assuming evolution is true a person finding himself in a religious community it would be advantageous for him to be religious, what a great tool in the hands of God. Assuming that creationism is true then enough scientific evidence will eventually be collected to prove evolution to be a hoax and we’ll all get over like we did when it was proved that the earth goes around the sun and not vis-a-versa.
No, the journal of discoures is not church doctrine and you have misunderstood the idea anyway.
The idea is that we are subject to the laws of the time we live in- Those that live under Joseph Smith will be organized under him and subject to the rules that were in force in his time period. Those under Thomas Monson are organized under him. We all are judged by Jesus, but he also has called Bishops which serve as common judges in Israel. I think that we will be organized into our time periods, and then further organized into smaller and smaller groups to make the work go faster. Since on the other side we will all have a perfect knowledge of our guilt or innocence, the judgement will be a self judgement more than anything.
Thats some pretty deep doctrine either way. Hope I helped.
Read what the Book of Mormon says:
2 Nephi 9:41-
“O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name. ”
Do you disagree?
Come back when you have more than 100+ year old, second-hand quote from a book that Mormons don’t even consider to be official doctrine.
EDIT: To person below me. What’s “cartoonish” is when people scour the JofD for information about what we believe but won’t even crack open the scriptures and other official sources of doctrine. The JofD is compiled from notes taken from speeches by early leaders. They weren’t written by the speakers themselves. While probably mostly accurate, the JofD can’t be relied upon to the extent modern general conference talks can, since today they are instantly recorded, and thus every word of the transcripts can be verified. This isn’t the case with the JofD. This is why the LDS church has made is clear that the JofD is not considered an “official” source of LDS doctrine. I’m not saying the JofD is worthless, but any objective researcher will want to know which sources are more reliable than others. The less-objective researchers don’t care unfortunately, they are just trying to find dirt. Anyone who really wants to know what we believe should start with the scriptures and with the teachings of our modern leaders.
Would you quit quoting from that blasted Journal of Discourses please!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT PART OF IT NOT being doctrinal in any way do you not GET!
We also believe that it is ONLY in and through the name of our Savior Jesus Christ that we will be saved at last in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Perhaps Journal of Discources was ONCE considered MORE than it is today. Personally, today it is a stain on our gospel heritage and I cringe whenever I hear it quoted…. unpopular opinion no doubt from other LDS – but sorry…come on now – SOME OF THOSE entries are racist, bizarre and unfounded….. clearly!
Joseph Smith is an honored and revered prophet of our church and we respect and love him for all he did for this church. Some might give him MORE adulation than others…. “one bad apple……”
I think Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet of God and always will be.
I think he was a wonderful human being and a great example of what a man should be like.
I would die to protect him, just like his brother Hyrum did. I would be honored in every way to know him face to face.
I will call him my brother now and for all eternity.
So to answer your question, I do believe that he fits in quite well for the Latter-day Saints.
I know that we do not worship Joseph Smith in any way, and answering questions thrown at us in derogatory fashion or entering into philosophical debate is futile.
Therefore I say you deliberately twist the truth.
Mutual disagreement is one thing, but out right hatred and information intended to discredit and belittle is Bigotry.
Edit; from what you posted above, it looks to me like you are claiming to be an apostle of Joseph Smith. This is a false claim, since everyone knows that only Jesus had Apostles.
First off, the Journal of Discourses is not and never has been doctrine of the LDS church. What is written in it is the opinion of fallible men. I know that My salvation is gained through the blood that Christ shed on the cross at Calvary. I see Joseph Smith as the man who brought about the LDS church and the fullness of the Gospel to this dispensation. I do not think that he is the gateway that I have to pass through in order to obtain the Celestial Kingdom.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
I revere Joseph Smith as a Prophet of God, whom God used to restore his Gospel to the earth.
I look to my Savior, Jesus Christ for my salvation.
Does that answer your question?
It’s easy to take parts of sentences and put them together and make something sound completely different than what is actually being said. I doubt the over all message of whoever was talking said “I’m a disciple of Joseph Smith and if you don’t believe what I say you’re going to hell.” when in fact it was probably nothing like that.
I could go into detail of how you have to accept Joseph to accept the full gospel of Christ but really, you don’t care.
I don’t have a certificate from Joseph Smith, and yet I believe I shall surely enter into the mansion where God and Christ are.